Hello sir,
Is it poosible to loop back the generated 18v to self run the motor?/
i am very much excited to see that.
You work definitely the blessing for humanity.
Regards,
D.J

Amazing fast running thread. Thanks for all your sharing!

Regarding reversal or not we need to decern two possibilities of reversing a magnetic field.
1. We can fight frontally against and will have the effect like shaking a heavy flywheel in our hands. In the end we can force a nail into wood if we use this wheel as a hammer. - Not very smart. Shure, we get a reversal but in the expense of discarding all energy stored before and filling another new chunk of energy again and again.

2. We can reverse polarity by rotating the field in another direction. So we get a reversal without depletig the magnetic energy before. We opreate a flywheel in a genuine art.

@Ufo and Lamare: Is there a common view here?


As I have difficulties in following in detail all knowledge presented here the notion above might not apply. So please comment. Approval and disaproval have same potential in order to get more and refined knowledge.

BTW: This is one methode of some Asian cultures: Not to search the "facts" in direct way but to first find out what shurely does not hold - proved. Thus there is a good chance to not discard smart solutions in early state long before the matter is understood well.
rgds John

__________________
Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

Ufo

o.k I think I understand what you are saying -

1/ That when the respective motor coil leaves the contact of brush it is charged like a capacitor and then discharges at the delivery side 180 degrees apart.
Wouldn't the speed of the rotor be of importance? because the coil would only hold that charge for a certain amount of time, the faster the better to get as much charge to delivery brushes as quick as possible.

2/ I thought that the brushes 180 degrees apart were the pick up for independently generated energy (coil passing magnets type energy) as motoring coils were powering independently of the generating side. This is then quite wrong.

Now is there at all a combination of 1/ charged coil delivery, and 2/ coil passing magnets generating energy, at output?

thanks netica

Hello Ufo

This is the picture you asked for.
I should have taken a picture up front, before ripping it, sorry

But do me a favor, stay healthy and take decent sleep/food regularly.

Regards
Bert

Attached Thumbnails

 

UFO could you please measure the input/output amps?
I hope you know P = U * I

And if it is producing more output power you could make a selfrunner, but limit the output so the motor does not self accelerate to destruction.

I'm a little confused. Here you ask me how I think it is supposed to work, and a few posts below you say you don't want discussions on the theory.

So, if you like me to shut up, please say so directly and I will. I do not want to bother anyone, I just want to help and share what I know. And yes, I do not experiment very much, but this one I definitely want to build. I think this is very powerfull technology, because it appears to work and can be replicated for just a few bucks.

All right. What you are looking at in this picture is that N2 and N3 are not activated from the battery. Therefore, their polarity is being determined by the permanent magnet. In other words: N2 is S (induced by the N of the PM) and N3 is N (induced by the S of the PM).

In the current position of the rotor, in the case there would be no current flowing trough the N1 coil, N1 would be neutral in the centre, while you would have an S at the left (induced by the N of the PM at the left) and a N at the right (induced by the S of the PM at the right). In that case, most of the magnetic fieldlines would go trough N2 and N3, and some trough the top of N1.

The firing of N1 makes it a N, which is attracked by the S of the PM, and the closer it gets to the magnet, the stronger the N becomes, because the PM amplifies the pole already induced by the coil, because iron is being attracted by a magnet, by which process the iron gets magnetized by the PM by magnetic induction.

That is all the pretty much like with a normal motor.

Now I realize that the big difference is that N2 and N3 are also connected to a brush on the commutator, most notably during that part of the cycle where the pole moves in/out of the PM, causing a collapsing or building of a magnetic field in the core within the coil, which normally induces a high voltage in the coil, which gives a spark in normal motors.

And THAT is the problem with a normal motor, a problem that has been overlooked by everyone.

You see, the problem with a sparking coil is that you get very powerful phenomena taking place, which Steinmetz called "transients" about which he wrote a whole book:
Theory and calculation of transient electric phenomena and oscillations : Steinmetz, Charles Proteus, 1865-1923 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

And you only need to look at Edwin Gray's motor, which somehow harnassed these powerful transients by discharging a HV cap trough a spark gap into his coils, to realize that unwanted/uncontrolled sparks are a big headache in motors with coils. They generate much more powerfull (negative) effects than is being realized.

Now because your coils are connected to your generator brushes during that part of the cycle where the pole moves out of reach of the PM, you don't get these sparks and thus do not get these very powerfull transients that ruin the party in normally wired motors.

If this is correct, then I would say that you will not be able to have the motor power itself just by using the generator windings to re-charge your batteries. BUT you have all the torque on the shaft which you can use almost for free, so if you connect a separate generator to the shaft, you may very well be able to create a self-runner.

__________________

Why not?
.........................

Thanks but. I'll give her a try.

Matt

__________________
Gone Baby Gone!!!

Hi All
One thing that UFO mentioned and did not have time to talk about much is why some motors will not start up every time on there own. He mentioned that you must adjust the distributor. What that means is to loosen one end cap of motor and turn it a little to offset brush contact enough to self start. There is quite a range of adjustment available there. Sorry UFO. I did not mean to step on your feet here, just fill in some of the gaps.
Dana

F*** it, I'll say it:

Lamare, I've read your stuff before, at dollards thread, etc. I thought you were a really smart guy, but the above posts were pathetic.
After those posts, I'll never waste my time reading your posts again.

I got a poem for you, lamare

The witch is cool, and your a tool,
UFO don't need your help,
to make this viral, FOOL.

Such arrogance. Ufo was doing doing just fine before you came along. Now you sound like one of them there, parrots, that dollard speaks about.

You need your head longitudinally moon-bounced.

If you want to waste another half of page responding or talking about what you think about the vortex, god, religion, or the crown go ahead(man, I hope not) , but I'm gonna build me some motors.
Please don't take offense lamare, I'm just saying.

Start your own thread, on your theory, this is the UFO channel.

Thug

UFO,

I love your creativity UFO, it's why were here , YOUR AN ARTIIIIIST, Even your avatar is, so original. It seems to me, that lamare, is trying to pull yo chain, and distract you.
It's been 130 years, lets stop wasting time with lamare and the rest of the liliputians, they want to talk and not build.

I see you managed to shut up the farmhand!

Lamare who?

UFO
OK, but remember you invited me to.
Your Bosh motor (750W = 1hp before modification) probably has a no load current draw of about 1 Amp.
Your battery (a lipo... a very wonderful battery) first off is not the smallest made for RC models... you can get 3s lipos in 400mAh size. That aside... the one you used in the demo is a 1350mAh battery which can also be written as 1.3 amp hour (meaning the battery can provide 1.3 Amps for 1 hour). All of this means is that your battery is fully capable of powering that motor at no load for 1 hour (with out any modifications to the motor). In fact there are RC motors that are of 4hp to 5hp range that your little battery will power for a half hour or more at no load. So what is your demo videos showing is the advantage of your modification? I wanted this to be more much more than anyone else here did.

Sorry
Larry

Hi All

I have uploaded a video of my replication motor showing it working. I've mounted it on a base just to make it easier to work with.

pic:




Video:

John_G's Asymmetric Motor Replication - YouTube

Thanks to all

Regards

John

Just a quick thought. I describe it as a though experiment (as if I actually performed it) because that is how I 'see' it.

With just one motor at hand, can I connect the wires with just one commutator?

Suppose the wire starts 'as usual' but it ends with 2 diodes on the opposite poles (on the same commutator).

Example, the commutator has 5 poles, p1, p2, p3, p4 and p5.
I connect the wire to p1, start doing 25 rounds, flip over to the second part of the V shape and end with 2 diodes (forwarding the +, so the current runs from plus to minus) at poles 3 and 4.
And now I repeat all steps:
connect a wire to p2, wound it twice 25 times, and end with a diode to p4 and p5.
connect a wire to p3, wound it twice 25 times, and end with a diode to p5 and p1.
connect a wire to p4, wound it twice 25 times, and end with a diode to p1 and p2.
connect a wire to p5, wound it twice 25 times, and end with a diode to p2 and p3.

I am using 2 diodes, so that I am not actually connecting 2 poles, short circuiting them.

Also note that the last winding is actually half a winding more (or less), we need to end up on the side of the commutator again.

I am not much of a builder, really not. But the theory -for as far as I grabbed it- makes me think I have a way of creating a motor with only one at hand. No need to say we loose the option of the generation side, but then again, I have no idea if that is a win or a loose situation.

idea 2: could we use the anti-Lenz law (or what ever it is called) and add very thin wire on top of the other wires (shorted out) to gain more speed at no cost? (perhaps another thread for this question would be better, on the other hand maybe the idea is good enough for someone to try). No need to say this would only work on high RPM motors. Perhaps adding this as a feature might have us end up in an O.U. situation (not the main goal, because efficiency is the main goal of this thread I guess).

Deslo.

Hello Netica,

It seems you have not watched my Asymmetry Vid...Could you watch it please?...then come back here...just go directly to 10:40 of Video to see it "at work"

ASYMMETRY TO ENLIGHTENMENT - YouTube



Thanks

Ufopolitics

John did you get baseline reading on the motor before it was rewound?

Matt

__________________
Gone Baby Gone!!!

Hi Matt

No I didn't, I believe they pull about 2 amps normally.

I did have 2 more on order, but they have run out and have no date for the new stocks arriving.

Regards

John

Hello My Dear Friend Dana!!

You will never step on here, you will always be very welcome to say-write whatever you please...much thanks!

How is Bob doing?...send my regards please

That is EXACTLY what I meant Dana, thanks for refreshing it, The Brushes Housings are the "Distributor Shaft" for this Machines...(as also for Symmetrical), but they have to be moved both housings after making sure they are aligned in a perfect line between them.

As You move the Brushes Virtual Plane of alignment, in relation to the Stators Virtual Center Magnetic Plane, the Machine could stall to get the perfect "Timing" set running very smooth, this will also enhance the overall performance of Electrical Flow.

This I call the "Adjustment of the Interaction Angles", and here you could also set the rotation sense,if you pass the Magnetic Field Center plane to "the other side", without reversing the Voltage Input...that of course, if the Machine Structure-Design will allow it...

I have built "[" Brackets , like a "Bridge" over the Static Embodiments, attached to Upper-Lower Brush Housings to move both at same time and do this Adjustments...is awesome.


Many thanks for your Input here Dana, You are a very "positive" thinking person, I know you will build this machines very well.


Warm regards friend


Ufopolitics

Hello Dear John_G,


Excellent work!!, looks beautiful!!


Many thanks!!


Warm Regards dear friend!!


Ufopolitics

Hello Everyone. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, a know it all, or a disbeliever but we're 5 pages into the thread now and I have to agree with Larry 100%. No one has suggested a legitimate set of tests to determine the effectiveness of this modification. Measuring a voltage increase is a good sign but it doesn't prove anything unless there are some good test procedures to find out what to expect from this modification. There are replications now but still no proper tests. No one wants to see an improved DC motor more than me and I should make this replication myself but won't until I see the first really promising test. Did anyone test and record run characteristics of the Radio Shack motor before starting? How can you do anything without a bench mark for comparison? I'll bet you could take two RS motors and connect them with a piece of rubber tubing. Run one motor with the other and make the right connection at the brushes and I think you could measure an increase of voltage. What exactly are the claims for this motor. Will it run more efficiently than a normal DC model airplane motor. Prove it with some measurements. Will this modification run as a motor generator creating over unity? Prove it with some load tests. Will it charge batteries? If it's over unity, charge a table full of depleted batteries with just a few full ones. Will it self run? Feedback the output with one of the many cap dump circuits or any other way and show a self runner. A simple increase of efficiency would be satisfying to me but the tests aren't there yet.
Don't get me wrong. I'm in full support but would like to see some good solid testing.
Kindest Regards
John H

ufo

I watched your video over a few times especially where you have said to look and found it hard to understand, that is why I am asking these questions.

o.k I think I understand what you are saying -

1/ That when the respective motor coil leaves the contact of brush it is charged like a capacitor and then discharges at the delivery side 180 degrees apart.
Wouldn't the speed of the rotor be of importance? because the coil would only hold that charge for a certain amount of time, the faster the better to get as much charge to delivery brushes as quick as possible.

2/ I thought that the brushes 180 degrees apart were the pick up for independently generated energy (coil passing magnets type energy) as motoring coils were powering independently of the generating side. This is then quite wrong.

Now is there at all a combination of 1/ charged coil delivery, and 2/ coil passing magnets generating energy, at output?

answering these questions will help me the best.

thanks netica

Hello Deslo,

I have done that experiment already, and I have an armature with diodes on, one single Commutator...will show pics...soon.

I did it with a wound dual stators set up...pulsing them also with oscillator-controller...

It does run...but Energy stays within the Coil Loops..."auto energizing" them, extracting minimum energy out...and armature gets excessively hot...I was trying to simplify this same process with only one Comm...Don't work as well as Dual Commutators success...

However, You get an unusual and interesting performance though...some kind of a "Delay" in Rotation, even with my pulses to Stators very low, Armature will run very fast..but not with a robust torque...

I stop working on this Model for further studying...

By the way, Diodes have to be super ultra fast switchers..and High Voltages-Amps capacity...



Thanks for your input


Regards


Ufopolitics

Return it Bobo it's defective... you will only void the warranty if you mess with it.

I bought this winch at Harbor Freight the other day:
9000 lb. Off-Road Vehicle Winch with Automatic Load-Holding Brake

It was the biggest piece of S**T !!!

It would not even free spin for 30 seconds without getting hot and
shutting down! I think this new way of wiring DC motors will be my
answer, and possibly save Harbor Freight from a return.

Whether or not the UFO motor self runs, I do believe that it will
not overheat and render the winch useless like it's current wiring does.

DadHav,
Believe me, those tests will be run. That is why I purchased several of the radio shack motors. I will have one (out of the box) one converted (from two put together) and a fourth to be used as a generator. I will use the converted and one right out of the box to run the fourth motor as a generator with a known constant load. It will be Monday before I have all my tests done, but then I will post results, including amps in, amps out voltage in, voltage out (loaded and unloaded) and rpms.

Dave

__________________
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see. - Arthur Schopenhauer
Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened' General D.Eisenhower
The world we have created is a product of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking. Albert Einstein
I aim to misbehave. - Malcolm Reynolds

Actually, after researching a little, many DC electric winches have very short
duty cycles. I do believe the UFO winding / brush system is the answer!

I will try to build the Radio Shack motor this week, but based on UFO diagrams and explanations, I do not see how this motor can overheat.

The Combinations of One Coil charging to two Coils Discharging is offered by the Three Poles or Multiples thereof...like I stated before.

And NO, the speed will not affect performance, on the contrary -to our benefit- it will increase the Output Gain...

They DO, pick Up Energy from magnetic fields induction...and more...where do you think this "extra energy" comes from?


Regards


Ufopolitics

Wow, you guys are making nice work out of this...
That metal is really tough stuff to cut. I finally took my dremel tool with a cutting disc mounted it on the lathe and turning it by hand was able to finally get it cut. I messed it up a little trying other things, but was able to clean it up a bit on the lathe after it was cut. I should be done with the winding today, sure can't wait to see it run....

When they get more motors in RS I am going to get two more so I can use one as a baseline and the other as a generator/dynamometer of sorts. I think I will use a light for linear load, Then see how the new motor compares against the old. If it can beat 600watts per HP (I think it will easily) then That is good, If this thing does anything like I think, then I should see something more like 300w/HP. Like I have told all my friends I don't like marginal testing, so I am really hoping to see closer to the 300w/hp range.

However this is an easy test, so those who have made much better builds could certainly give this a try while I catch up....

The next test I have planned it to use one build as the motor and another build as the Generator. That could get very interesting I would think.... don't tell the Mib's.....


Les

Hello,

I saw that Winch pic, and looks great, but the "withdraw" is to buy two...to take one for parts!

I see on the other side a Gear Box...attached.

So please make sure you could get an extra Commutator for it's config, before taking it apart...the Body Frame could be expanded with just a tubing of same diameter...no biggie there. and also check shaft length to allow the arrangement.



Regards


Ufopolitics

Hello Turion,


So you are the guy who bought all Radio Shack Nationwide stock of this little Motors??!!...

No wonder people are trying to go from store to store with no luck!!

Just kidding and laughing...

Warm regards


Ufopolitics

Good on you Turoin

Hope you prove there is something here.

Regards
Larry